September 20, 2005
Scott Defisks HoNDA Sect. 2(4)
(4) Young people who have been educated at home are proving themselves to be competent citizens in postsecondary education and the workplace.
Chris calls this “amazing since we are apparently so discriminated against that we need a federal law written just to protect us.” I wonder how many financial aid officers Chris has talked to…
HSLDA members keep bumping into bureaucrats who just don’t care how “competent” homeschoolers are.
Have you ever had to deal with a financial aid officer who thinks her university will lose its federal funding if the homeschooler DOESN’T get a GED? Have you every had to talk to a military recruiter who will put a homeschooler into the infamous “Tier II” if they DO get a GED? Have you ever tried to make a school official sign a work permit for a homeschool kid? I have. That’s why I support HoNDA.
It would help me, at this point, to hear from some HoNDA opponents who have bumped into the kind of mindless bureaucrats that I am discussing. What was your experience? Were you able to persuade them to change their mind, or did you have to accept some mindless requirement that has nothing to do with homeschooling?
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I have not been blessed with any of those experiences. However, I don't believe asking the ultimate bureaucrats in Congress to fix the matter will solve anybodys problems. In fact, I believe it will ultimately make it worse.
True, true. More bureaucracy doesn't fix bureaucracy (witness FEMA, feds, Red Cross and local gov't reaction to Katrina. I've got a front-row seat to that one). It creates an obstacle course of circus hoops for the rest of us to jump through, which is a waste of resources and time not to mention what it does for efficiency and productivity (and then there's that whole freedom thing, but I digress).
I'm not interested in making HSLDA's job easier. I'm interested in making *mine* easier, which is why I don't support HoNDA...or HSLDA.
Posted by: Natalie at September 20, 2005 05:47 PM"Have you ever had to deal with a financial aid officer who thinks her university will lose its federal funding if the homeschooler DOESN’T get a GED?"
I'm assuming by this statement that the university does not lose its funding (I would be surpirsed if it did). So, why do you need a new law when the existing one is sufficient and the problem is lack of knowledge?
"What was your experience?"
My experience is that legislation (,policies, guidelines, etc.) like this simply creates more mindless bureaucrats and makes existing bureaucrats more mindless. The problem inherent in bureaucracy will never be cured by giving it more rules.
"HSLDA members keep bumping into bureaucrats who just don’t care how “competent” homeschoolers are."
Unfortunately, that (dealing with bureaucrats) is what your members are paying you for. Whether you create one law or a million, you are still not going to make them care.
Posted by: Ron at September 20, 2005 09:50 PMAs Ron notes, HSLDA members pay me to deal with bureaucrats. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it. Now, I know I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy from this audience, but that won't keep me from "dealing with bureaucrats" with all my characteristic zeal and passion.
Here's my favorite way of dealing with bureaucrats. I call them up and say, "Did you know that your policy violates federal and/or state law?" Then I read them out the chapter and verse and ask to talk to their supervisor. It's a VERY satisfying experience... if you've got the chapter and verse to quote.
HoNDA is well-designed to solve my problems as I try to help HSLDA members. If it creates new problems for other homeschoolers, I want to hear about it while there's still time to fix it. I'm well aware of the danger of unintended consequences.
What I'm not interested in is for people to tell me that HoNDA won't solve MY problems. I think I'm the best judge of that.
Posted by: Scott W. Somerville at September 21, 2005 03:13 PMHoNDA gives you another law to quote when you call. As Ron pointed out, that doesn't change anybodys behavior.
Posted by: COD at September 21, 2005 04:26 PMActually, I find it's quite effective in changing people's behavior. Give a bureaucrat a form and they're happy. We're trying to make sure the forms work for HSLDA members and as many other homeschoolers as possible.
Posted by: Scott W. Somerville at September 21, 2005 05:10 PMGee.. looks like enacting HONDA would put Scott out of a job of educating the bureaucrats..
Hmm.. maybe the "Dear Colleague" Letter should be re-circulated instead of enacting federal Legislation that is unneccesary
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"In other words, in the past, homeschool students below the compulsory attendance age were able to receive federal student aid for college, but yet the Handbook stated that those same students could not be accepted into a college because the college would lose its financial aid. This absurd result was clearly fixed by the "Dear Colleague" letter, which can be found at the U.S. Department of Education's financial aid website at: http://ifap.ed.gov/dpcletters/GEN0211.html.
The "Dear Colleague" letter also states that homeschoolers can self-certify their completion of their secondary education in a homeschool setting. No proof is required to be submitted in order to receive student financial aid."
- (June 19, 2003 Federal Requirements for Homeschoolers Seeking College Admission and Financial Aid)
"Congress has revised and clarified federal law affecting homeschoolers. The U.S. Department of Education has changed its policy as well. Both point to a common principle: homeschoolers should be admitted to colleges and granted financial aid without having to take additional tests beyond what is required of traditionally schooled students. Ignoring a homeschool graduate's diploma and requiring him to take a GED, SAT II, or ability-to-benefit test, while graduates from traditional high schools are not required to do so, is seen as discriminatory by Congress.
Furthermore, institutions of higher learning that receive federal aid can admit homeschool graduates, at any age, without endangering their institutional eligibility. For federal financial aid, homeschoolers need only self-certify their homeschool diplomas. "
- (June 19, 2003 Federal Requirements for Homeschoolers Seeking College Admission and Financial Aid)
Judy, if you know bureaucrats the way I think you do, you'll understand that you can read that letter aloud to a financial aid officer, while they stare at the freshly-faxed copy they hold in their little bureaucratic paws, and you can even have them underline the relevant sentences in ink, and they still end the conversation by saying, "I'm just afraid we'll lose our federal funding if we do this."
The good news is that you can usually tell the bureaucrat to send the letter on to the college's general counsel, who (after a three week wait) will get on the phone with me (because I'm another attorney) and announce (after a lot of hemming and hawing and footnoting and fine print) that it might be possible to make an exception to the school's policy in this one case.
The bad news is that you then have to fight the same fight the next year with the same officials.
Posted by: Scott W. Somerville at September 23, 2005 02:06 PMIf the comment entry box is gone it's because comments are closed for this entry. Please feel free to use the "contact" link above to get in touch.